Openai/69746488-13b4-800e-9697-af59abfa9557

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[00:00:01] [music] [00:00:11] Today, the Critical Minerals Institute [00:00:13] has the pleasure of hosting a Critical [00:00:15] Minerals Institute tungsten master [00:00:18] class. And of course with all the US [00:00:21] defense procurement bans and export [00:00:23] restrictions on China, tungsten has [00:00:26] arguably become one of the most top most [00:00:30] intriguing critical minerals in the [00:00:32] world. Christopher, I'm going to let you [00:00:33] start by giving us an introduction to [00:00:35] what tungsten is and why this has [00:00:38] become, I think I read from you, one of [00:00:41] the sexiest critical minerals in the [00:00:43] market. [00:00:44] Yeah, that's a bit of an oxymoron there, [00:00:46] but anyway, um it was very unsexy for a [00:00:50] long while. Um you know, there was [00:00:52] supposedly a peace dividend after the [00:00:55] fall of the um the uh Iron Curtain in [00:01:00] 1989 and we didn't need it anymore [00:01:03] because there would be the end of wars [00:01:05] or the end of history as Francis [00:01:07] Fukuyama said. Um but the reality is [00:01:10] that wars keep coming around. Um and the [00:01:14] West more than most um sort of fell [00:01:17] asleep at the wheel after um it thought [00:01:20] that it could spend the money by not [00:01:23] only not adding to stock piles but by um [00:01:26] burning up its stock piles or running [00:01:28] them down. And um so now tungsten which [00:01:33] is one of the heaviest and one of the [00:01:34] hardest metals is now one of the fastest [00:01:39] rising metals. um as uh the tensions [00:01:42] over recent years have reached a boiling [00:01:44] point. Um one thing to think about here [00:01:48] is not just the fact that you know China [00:01:50] restricts exports etc. It's also that [00:01:53] because the west whether it's um it's uh [00:01:58] the US or Europe on one side in the [00:02:01] Ukrainian war and the Russians on the [00:02:03] other side both sides are using tungsten [00:02:06] up as we speak. Um and for many decades [00:02:11] uh you know hardly any tungsten was used [00:02:13] at all by the militaries because uh they [00:02:16] weren't shooting at anyone and now the [00:02:18] shooting is definitely on and um you [00:02:21] know talk of uh even more escalation in [00:02:25] different um areas is out there. Um so [00:02:30] uh the stock piles that the west [00:02:32] military did have uh uh gone or being [00:02:35] severely reduced. um the stock piles [00:02:38] Russia had are being severely reduced [00:02:41] and so um all of these groups uh need to [00:02:44] restock what they've got and the Chinese [00:02:47] have uh pretty much like the um the soup [00:02:50] Nazi in uh Seinfeld said no more [00:02:53] tungsten for you at least no more [00:02:55] tungsten if it's being used for what the [00:02:57] Chinese call dual use which is when it's [00:03:00] used for um commercial and or military [00:03:04] purposes and um the Commercial uses of [00:03:07] tungsten um are many and various but the [00:03:10] prime ones that you know affect um us [00:03:13] and that we would know are things like [00:03:15] knives uh drill bits uh machine tools [00:03:20] and basically enormous amount of [00:03:22] industry in the west whether it's the [00:03:23] auto industry or anything that basically [00:03:26] cuts metal requires um tungsten on the [00:03:29] blades uh to have them not wear out. Um [00:03:32] drill bits as we know in the um in the [00:03:35] mining industry are very important and [00:03:38] it's not just diamond drill bits there [00:03:40] are there's tungsten in those drill bits [00:03:41] as well and so um but the Chinese have [00:03:45] said uh if it's being used for dual use [00:03:48] purposes uh that is for the military as [00:03:50] well um uh they're going to restrict the [00:03:54] exports uh so you have to prove that [00:03:56] it's not being used for military uses [00:03:58] and um that's rather difficult for the [00:04:02] Chinese to track. So they've just [00:04:04] restricted the exports um pretty [00:04:06] massively not just in tungsten but in [00:04:08] some other metals as well as we know. So [00:04:11] this created a fevered environment and [00:04:13] tungsten after a very long time uh has [00:04:17] uh awoken from its slumbers. Um it's [00:04:20] price you know wallowed for a good 10 [00:04:23] years um from 2014 through to maybe [00:04:27] 2012. then it started moving up a little [00:04:30] bit but very slowly uh when many other [00:04:33] metals were moving a lot faster but [00:04:36] really in the last um few months um [00:04:39] tungsten has gone vertical and um it's [00:04:42] been flirting with the um the thousand [00:04:45] mark and um uh you know one of the [00:04:49] dangers of course with any metal that [00:04:51] goes up too fast is the farther it rises [00:04:54] uh the faster it can fall but um at [00:04:56] least at this moment uh tungst is having [00:04:58] eight stay in the sun. [00:05:01] >> Fantastic. And so, you know, I remember [00:05:03] Lewis, seven, eight years ago when you [00:05:05] first started t talking me talking to me [00:05:07] about tungsten. You seem to be way ahead [00:05:11] of the market in anticipating what we [00:05:13] would be looking for. I'm going to throw [00:05:14] you right into it, Lewis. I was reading [00:05:16] in your about paragraph that your [00:05:19] flagship Sang Dong mine in South Korea [00:05:23] um is expected to supply over 80% of [00:05:26] global non-China tungsten production [00:05:29] upon reaching full capacity. So how [00:05:32] about we start there? [00:05:33] >> Well well firstly uh you know it's very [00:05:35] kind of you to give me the credit for [00:05:36] seven eight years ago. uh but as my [00:05:38] father said may you rest in peace better [00:05:40] to be lucky than smart and uh you know [00:05:43] in commodities and anything that's [00:05:44] cyclical if you become very good at [00:05:46] something especially in a low price [00:05:48] environment then at some point in in a [00:05:50] commodities life cycle uh you will be a [00:05:53] superstar and uh that very fortunately [00:05:56] has now occurred for all of my [00:05:57] shareholders which of course very very [00:05:59] excited and very happy about I think one [00:06:02] of the things I will just before I just [00:06:04] talk about Sam Dong some of the things [00:06:05] that Chris said I've always found [00:06:07] tungsten sexy. And the reason is not [00:06:11] because I ever thought that it should be [00:06:13] price driven, but availability driven. [00:06:15] To me, no one really cares [00:06:19] deep down inside as a consumer what [00:06:22] tungsten costs because you use so little [00:06:24] of it in the end process. So, it doesn't [00:06:26] have any profound effect on its uses nor [00:06:29] on the margin of that end product. [00:06:31] What's more important was availability [00:06:33] which up until recently was readily [00:06:36] available uh so it seemed from China and [00:06:40] a number of things have have occurred. [00:06:42] Chris was absolutely right. Dual use has [00:06:45] has really put a a sort of a wrench in [00:06:47] in that whole debate because tungsten is [00:06:50] used in so many different products. How [00:06:53] do you actually prove the braking [00:06:55] component that you manufacture doesn't [00:06:57] end up in an armored vehicle? It's [00:06:59] almost an impossible bar to to to to [00:07:02] beat and China knows this and and I [00:07:04] think it's very important. [00:07:06] I think slightly differently here uh [00:07:09] from the Sup. [00:07:14] This was always about business. China [00:07:16] did not invest the time and the billions [00:07:20] it's taken to develop this raw material [00:07:22] supply chain in order to be able to [00:07:24] blackmail the West. It was never about [00:07:26] that. [00:07:27] They were going vertical. They went on [00:07:30] the same journey that we abandoned as [00:07:33] they came in because they bought market [00:07:35] share by bringing prices down and 98 99% [00:07:40] of all tungsten minds went out of [00:07:41] business within a six sevenyear window [00:07:44] in that price environment including [00:07:45] Samong. [00:07:47] So I think we have to look at this not [00:07:49] as an ideological battle but as a [00:07:53] business battle. China 10 years ago [00:07:56] their downstream products were the [00:07:58] quality wasn't the greatest. They don't [00:08:00] innovate but they replicate but now [00:08:04] their quality is in replication is as [00:08:06] good and sometimes better than we can do [00:08:08] in the west and what we're asking them [00:08:09] to do is to switch back on the taps to [00:08:11] feed their own competitors. So of course [00:08:14] from a business perspective that doesn't [00:08:15] make sense. In terms of Samong we bought [00:08:19] it at a time 2015. So classic 10ear [00:08:23] cycle to build a mine in a democracy 8 [00:08:25] to 10 year. [00:08:28] What made and makes Sandong highly [00:08:31] unusual [00:08:32] is that it closed in 93 [00:08:36] not because it couldn't have competed [00:08:38] with low price environment but because [00:08:41] for so many years like BlackBerry they [00:08:43] were the king of kings and their [00:08:45] customer base was exclusively to the US [00:08:48] government. The Korean government was [00:08:50] pivoting into a whole new industrial [00:08:52] development. Mines were no longer a [00:08:53] factor in that as they came into what [00:08:55] they call their fourth industrial [00:08:56] revolution and there was no ideas. We [00:09:00] knew this mine very well back in the day [00:09:02] because of course the other superersized [00:09:04] mine was Panisca. These were the two big [00:09:07] dogs that existed back in the day and [00:09:09] there was a good healthy respectful [00:09:11] relationship between these mines. [00:09:14] Sam Dong and the Korean government [00:09:16] decided to throw in the towel. It was a [00:09:19] new day, a new dawn, and China was [00:09:21] always going to be available. So they [00:09:23] thought and Portugal Panoscaramine took [00:09:26] the view, well, no one's going to help [00:09:28] us. No one's going to try and fight for [00:09:30] us. We're not going to get any help from [00:09:31] the government. What can we do? And so [00:09:33] we started to innovate technologies and [00:09:35] efficiencies to allow us not to compete [00:09:37] against China. No one can compete [00:09:39] against the CCP. It was impossible, but [00:09:41] to survive. And we did so. And as a [00:09:44] consequence, and I'm a big big believer [00:09:48] and and a big supporter of of [00:09:50] development of innovations in in metals, [00:09:54] specifically tungsten. What we ended up [00:09:56] creating in Portugal was the world's [00:09:58] most valuable tungsten. We uh paid 20 [00:10:01] 25% above market because these [00:10:03] innovations by complete chance. It was [00:10:05] not our intention or our design, but we [00:10:07] ended up producing this extremely [00:10:09] high-grade and very homogeneous product. [00:10:12] And we find ourselves at this moment. We [00:10:16] were given the opportunity to buy [00:10:17] SMDong. We use these efficiencies and [00:10:20] technologies to build it. And everything [00:10:21] we've done on our Monte was for a lower [00:10:23] price environment. As Chris said, the [00:10:25] price has been for almost 20 years in a [00:10:28] price band because of the Chinese [00:10:30] subsidies given to the mines. That price [00:10:33] band represented a 12 to 18% margin on [00:10:36] Chinese mines when you add the subsidy. [00:10:39] As of last year, there was a 4-year [00:10:41] reduction program of those subsidies [00:10:43] culminating in last year. Those [00:10:44] subsidies don't exist anymore. So, we [00:10:46] are going to have a correction in the [00:10:47] price. Are we going to see this current [00:10:50] price maintained? [00:10:52] Who knows? I'm not for me, I don't I [00:10:55] plan at a lower price of 450 to 550. But [00:10:58] certainly, I think one thing Chris [00:11:00] skirted over which I think is very [00:11:02] important. [00:11:04] This vertical acceleration of price is [00:11:07] not unique to the west. It's actually [00:11:10] higher in China right now. They share [00:11:13] the same scarcity issues that we do. The [00:11:16] difference is for our Monty we're 10 [00:11:18] years ahead of them in efficiencies [00:11:20] because well we never had a subsidy so [00:11:21] we had to be. They'll catch up no doubt [00:11:23] about it but certainly they have uh [00:11:27] similar supply squeezes as we do. So in [00:11:31] many ways this export restriction is [00:11:34] helpful in preservation and I think I [00:11:36] can say this safely because I know at [00:11:37] least five mines that have closed and I [00:11:40] also am aware of how aggressively [00:11:43] Chinese buyers are procuring non-Chinese [00:11:46] material especially in central Africa [00:11:48] and what's different this time is they [00:11:51] aren't the normal players who buy we [00:11:54] know all the the main parties Jamin and [00:11:56] Jangy and we know these guys these are [00:11:58] all single all you know one person [00:12:02] companies no one's heard of which means [00:12:03] almost ex for certain this is CCP money [00:12:07] that they're trying to procure. So, so [00:12:09] Tracy and in terms of of Samsung's [00:12:12] output in its in its in its iteration [00:12:14] and our design, we can probably get up [00:12:16] to around 40% of non-Chinese supply, but [00:12:19] its size and it's and it's basically [00:12:22] it's horizontal deposit means that you [00:12:23] can open further portals if really the [00:12:26] end of world comes and you've really got [00:12:27] to pump and crank that project. But [00:12:29] we've designed it for two phases, not [00:12:32] four. But it is technically possible to [00:12:35] do another three, a phase three, and a [00:12:37] phase four if really the end of days [00:12:40] comes. [00:12:43] >> Great reply. Christopher, do you want to [00:12:45] comment on any of those uh comments from [00:12:48] Lewis? Because I have a number of [00:12:50] questions from that. [00:12:52] >> No, I'd agree totally. Um interesting. [00:12:54] You know, the Chinese are well [00:12:56] publicized as being out there in um [00:12:59] outside China trying to buy up assets [00:13:01] and you know, they're very much focused [00:13:03] on gold. They haven't really been able [00:13:05] to snafle many um tungsten assets. The [00:13:09] prime tungsten assets are in countries [00:13:12] where the door can be shut on them. Um [00:13:15] >> well, also Chris, to be fair, some of [00:13:18] them aren't very good. I mean, China's [00:13:20] looking for longevity rather than a than [00:13:22] a story. you know, they they've a lot of [00:13:24] the projects we see now that are coming [00:13:25] to fruition, China has spent a lot of [00:13:27] years looking at and chose not to go [00:13:28] ahead because this closing door is only [00:13:31] a recent thing. You know, they could [00:13:33] have bought quite happily. So, you know, [00:13:35] I think they they're looking for [00:13:37] longevity and they're looking for, you [00:13:39] know, a genuine resource rather than [00:13:41] just, you know, the classic story. [00:13:43] >> Yeah. [00:13:43] >> So, [00:13:44] >> yeah, but Africa, of course, they're [00:13:46] dependent upon artisals and artisals are [00:13:48] merely scratchings. [00:13:49] >> Yeah. Absolutely. the decent assets [00:13:52] outside China are largely identified and [00:13:56] and and snaffled up by Western [00:13:58] companies. Ironically, the West is um [00:14:01] very late in the piece um you know had [00:14:04] the the the blinkers drop from its eyes [00:14:07] and had a wakeup call but ironically the [00:14:10] wakeup call that's doing the damage to [00:14:11] China now was forced upon the west by [00:14:14] China. So it's an enormous own goal that [00:14:17] in metals like tungsten and uh antimony [00:14:20] and gallium and geranium that the [00:14:22] Chinese actually ended up being the ones [00:14:24] who blew the alarm bell and woke the [00:14:27] west up. [00:14:29] >> So let's flip to Trump please now and [00:14:31] the United States. [00:14:33] >> I'm going to ask both of you the same [00:14:34] question. Christopher, the impact on [00:14:37] Trump's tariffs and his [00:14:41] uh legislation uh for nationalizing the [00:14:44] critical minerals. And then I would love [00:14:47] Lewis for you to to explain how Elmont [00:14:50] is going to deal with this because [00:14:51] you're in some countries that may or not [00:14:53] may or may not be in Trump's favor and [00:14:56] how you're dealing with that. Go ahead, [00:14:58] Christopher. [00:14:59] >> Okay. Well, the first thing is it was [00:15:01] Biden who brought in tariffs on Tonston. [00:15:03] um they were brought in you know only a [00:15:05] few years ago. So it was actually the [00:15:08] previous um administration that started [00:15:11] to have its um its aha moment. Uh but it [00:15:15] wasn't much of one. I mean they brought [00:15:16] in the tariffs to restrict the Chinese [00:15:19] um flows so that somehow there'd be some [00:15:22] great upflowering of uh of production in [00:15:26] the US. It needed more than that. And [00:15:28] then the Chinese provided the extra [00:15:30] impetus by um by these banks. Um but as [00:15:35] far as uh you know what the [00:15:37] administration is doing at the moment, [00:15:38] you know, we do have it's very [00:15:40] unfortunate this over um focus on real [00:15:44] rare earths and sort of like it he's [00:15:46] he's like a president who can't walk and [00:15:48] chew gum at the same time. So you know [00:15:51] rare earths are he's sort of got his [00:15:54] brain wrapped around. It's a few words [00:15:56] that that sound sexy. um tungsten if you [00:15:59] had to get him to enter too many medals [00:16:01] he'd get all confused um well more [00:16:04] confused and so um you know that's where [00:16:07] we are at the moment but he is just the [00:16:10] front of the organization behind it um [00:16:13] the Pentagon has always known that [00:16:16] tungsten was important to it but uh if [00:16:18] you tried 10 years ago to get money out [00:16:21] of the US Congress for stockpiling of [00:16:24] critical metals you would have been told [00:16:26] no I want a bridge to nowhere in my [00:16:28] constituency [00:16:30] uh for my voters. I don't want a [00:16:32] stockpile somewhere of something to be [00:16:34] useful to the country and that is the [00:16:36] reason why the stock piles of everything [00:16:38] were run down. I mean it was only in the [00:16:40] previous administration that they [00:16:42] started getting rid of the helium [00:16:43] stockpile and really crazy. Um so at [00:16:46] least that stopped now and the alarm [00:16:48] bells that have rung have meant that um [00:16:51] uh Congress is now prepared to give [00:16:52] money which has been the big thing [00:16:54] that's been lacking for 30 years. They [00:16:56] all wanted their peace dividend to spend [00:16:57] on getting themselves more votes whether [00:16:59] it was schools or bridges or roads or [00:17:02] you know whatever. Um it was not in [00:17:04] stock piles. They were very unsexy. [00:17:07] >> And of course Lewis you're NASDAQ listed [00:17:10] so the American audience is very [00:17:12] important to you. Can you respond to [00:17:13] that question? [00:17:15] >> Well I I think the the point that you [00:17:17] you made about tariffs. Tungsten is [00:17:20] exempt from tariffs regardless of I mean [00:17:22] we it's in it's in the appendix of the [00:17:24] White House you know submissions. So [00:17:27] they have exempted from tariffs uh many [00:17:29] of these products. Tungsten I I can't [00:17:31] speak for anything outside of tungsten [00:17:33] but I know that tungsten is exempt when [00:17:34] bringing it in to the US. Uh as for the [00:17:38] countries that fall in and out of favor [00:17:40] well we're in South Korea and Portugal [00:17:42] um and Spain. To my knowledge, the US [00:17:45] still has a pretty good relationship [00:17:47] with all three nations and and and we [00:17:49] try and of course Montana. Um, but I [00:17:52] think we we try and work in countries [00:17:54] where there are sort of good solid legal [00:17:57] systems. I think what Chris said was was [00:17:59] interesting. Rare earths aren't rare, [00:18:02] but from a political point of view, it's [00:18:04] much easier to talk about something [00:18:06] that's readily available because then [00:18:07] you can find an easy fix because it's [00:18:10] all about speed of solution. Tungsten on [00:18:13] the other hand is scarce both here in [00:18:15] the west, both in China and in Russia. [00:18:18] This is not an easy fix. And one thing [00:18:21] that we I don't think we touch upon [00:18:23] enough is the human capital needed to [00:18:25] even process tungsten. Tungsten is an [00:18:28] extremely difficult metal to mine and [00:18:29] process because it's the same density as [00:18:31] gold and as brittle as porcelain. So you [00:18:33] can imagine when you when you handle it [00:18:35] why most of the projects pretty much all [00:18:36] of them that we haven't owned in the [00:18:37] last 15 years have bled out through [00:18:40] through essentially not being able to [00:18:42] process it efficiently. So for our mind [00:18:46] we are a NASDAQ company we're a US [00:18:48] company now we on shores because we felt [00:18:53] that the bulk of our customers have a [00:18:56] significant presence in the US. They're [00:18:58] both American companies and also [00:19:00] European and Japanese companies with [00:19:02] significant infrastructure and and [00:19:04] plants within the US. Um I've lived in [00:19:07] America for many years. I'm actually [00:19:09] despite my accent an American. And [00:19:12] even though as Chris says it's sometimes [00:19:14] a little, you know, all over the place. [00:19:17] There are some very smart people working [00:19:20] who I've met firsthand both in the White [00:19:22] House and in various congressional [00:19:24] committees who are working on solutions. [00:19:27] This is not an easy unravel. I mean, I [00:19:31] know you can take a Gordian knot and [00:19:32] just cut it, but you can't do this with [00:19:33] with with with these things. I mean, [00:19:35] think in the last year how many mines in [00:19:38] the United States have received all of [00:19:40] their permits to start work [00:19:42] or even in Europe. It's it's just [00:19:46] this is going to be a long-term program. [00:19:50] And you have to remember not everybody [00:19:54] wants this. And I'm not just talking [00:19:55] about China. I'm talking internally. [00:19:58] The industrial base was rather happy [00:20:01] with the status quo. They liked this [00:20:04] idea of unearned margin they could apply [00:20:06] to their products by cheap CCP [00:20:08] subsidized material. They were never in [00:20:11] a big hurry to find diversification [00:20:13] because well that costs money and god [00:20:15] forbid you should pay market price for [00:20:17] things. This would be just appalling. [00:20:19] So, they haven't exactly been banging [00:20:22] the door down to support these efforts [00:20:24] of the Trump administration. They may be [00:20:27] taking a more uh a view where if you let [00:20:32] it die on the vine, eventually the [00:20:34] status quo will the pendulum will just [00:20:36] swing back to how it was and this will [00:20:38] all be a dream. We'll all wake up from [00:20:39] it. It's somebody used the expressions [00:20:41] to me the other day. It's like in that [00:20:42] movie Trading Places when when the guy [00:20:44] had gone through all the misery and he [00:20:45] woke up in his own bed and he thought [00:20:46] it'd all been a dream. That's how my [00:20:48] customers are approaching this. This is [00:20:50] all a dreadful moment in time, but it's [00:20:53] going to pass because while the solution [00:20:55] is going to take so long politically, [00:20:56] we'll all get over it and there'll be a [00:20:58] new administration and the status quo [00:20:59] will return. And if we have to buy [00:21:01] finished products from China in the [00:21:03] interim, so be it. [00:21:05] >> Christopher, I'm certain you have a [00:21:07] comment on that. [00:21:08] >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. [laughter] [00:21:10] It's it's it's quite evident that that [00:21:13] uh just in time thinking uh Harvard [00:21:17] casebook studies basically meant you [00:21:19] bought from the cheapest person always [00:21:23] and you never paid up for security [00:21:26] because the product would always be [00:21:28] there and um now the product is not [00:21:30] there. There must be, you know, quite a [00:21:32] lot of sort of like nervous breakdowns [00:21:35] in many um supply uh or procurement [00:21:38] departments in the military-industrial [00:21:41] complex because they've not had really [00:21:44] since second world war uh a dilemma like [00:21:47] this of where do they get product [00:21:49] because the product was always there. [00:21:51] But that's that's an interesting point [00:21:53] Chris because how do you actually [00:21:55] acknowledge a problem with a metal [00:21:57] that's so strategically you know so [00:21:59] important to national security then [00:22:01] you're telling your adversaries you have [00:22:03] an issue to produce munitions you have [00:22:05] an issue to produce semiconductors [00:22:06] through you know the tungsten gas so [00:22:08] it's something which you have a problem [00:22:10] but you can't acknowledge you have it [00:22:12] because then you're telling everyone [00:22:13] that you have that problem. So it's that [00:22:16] also is another dynamic with stringic [00:22:18] metals. How much noise can you really [00:22:20] make about things that are very scarce? [00:22:23] Rare earths are not scarce. Graphite is [00:22:26] not scarce. Lithium is not scarce. Make [00:22:28] all the noise you like. You have the [00:22:30] resources. But some of these elements, [00:22:32] tungsten being one of them. How much [00:22:34] noise can you really say without telling [00:22:37] your adversaries, you know what, we have [00:22:39] a problem. We cannot produce munitions. [00:22:41] We cannot produce semiconductors. We [00:22:44] cannot produce cars, planes. You know, [00:22:47] it's so there's also that politics has [00:22:50] become a business of optics and if you [00:22:54] tell people long enough it's all right, [00:22:56] by the time they realize it's not, the [00:22:58] next guy's already in the job and so you [00:23:00] can always point the finger back. Wasn't [00:23:01] me. He said it. So that's also something [00:23:04] our our the way that we our democracies [00:23:09] are really not designed to deal with [00:23:12] this problem efficiently and quickly. [00:23:15] and that we have to acknowledge and [00:23:17] China of course knows this. [00:23:19] >> So let's hit on some of the challenges [00:23:21] we're now facing. I think you touched on [00:23:23] the widening of the audience Lewis and [00:23:26] one of your answers earlier and [00:23:28] Christopher I think I'd spoken to you on [00:23:30] how two family offices have reached out [00:23:33] to the CMI in the last week full of [00:23:36] traders that are undoubtedly looking to [00:23:38] buy criticals like tungsten and store [00:23:42] them. We had a gentleman on this phone [00:23:45] uh phone call earlier who was explaining [00:23:47] that his daughter for Christmas gave him [00:23:50] a cube of tungsten. How is this market [00:23:52] going to handle the increasing demand [00:23:56] caused by the media? [00:23:58] >> Well, well reflected um I think in [00:24:02] renewed interest in the stocks. I mean [00:24:05] and Lewis is like you know the great [00:24:07] survivor here. I mean, he's been doing [00:24:09] this since the end of the first decade [00:24:12] of this century. [00:24:13] >> All right. All right. I'm about take it [00:24:15] easy. [00:24:16] >> Well, 2008, 2007. That's the end of the [00:24:20] first I'm [laughter] not saying last [00:24:22] century, but I've been doing these [00:24:23] things since last century. Um, but um, [00:24:26] you know, there's hardly anyone in the [00:24:28] space and if you were, you died of [00:24:30] starvation. Lewis's has been uh you know [00:24:33] that who needs ozone when you've got the [00:24:35] tungsten market which was a real [00:24:38] exercise in starvation. Um but uh you [00:24:42] know now you know companies are [00:24:44] appearing but this is a very interesting [00:24:46] um sector speaking as a mining analyst [00:24:48] is the only sector I know where the [00:24:52] developers and the producers way [00:24:54] outnumber the explorers. Um they're [00:24:57] virtually no new explorers because [00:24:59] there's hardly anything that is easy for [00:25:02] them to get their hands on. Um I think [00:25:06] there's one of the few sectors where [00:25:07] brown fields trumps green fields any [00:25:10] day. Uh if you can find a mine that shut [00:25:13] down because of the Chinese price um [00:25:16] competition 30 40 years ago um you know [00:25:20] they're way better to reboot them than [00:25:23] look for some godforsaken mine in the [00:25:25] Northwest Territories. um you know and [00:25:29] so people are going for past producers [00:25:32] um as we've seen you know all the all [00:25:34] the minds of um alonte are past [00:25:36] producers um the minds of most of the [00:25:39] players that are serious are past [00:25:41] producers if you're looking for green [00:25:43] fields um you know you could spend a lot [00:25:46] of time you know lost in the jungles or [00:25:49] the waste looking for something um [00:25:51] because you know what we have here is a [00:25:54] demand that people want it and they want [00:25:56] it Now, they don't want any 10-year um [00:25:59] time frame. They want a 10-month time [00:26:02] frame. [00:26:03] >> I'm going to go back to the demand from [00:26:06] the military or the alleged demand from [00:26:08] the military. Lewis, I suspect you're [00:26:11] getting outreach from a number of [00:26:14] international countries having to do [00:26:16] with their military demands. And [00:26:18] Christopher actually asked me earlier uh [00:26:20] how you're planning on fitting in with [00:26:22] the rearmament goals of South Korea and [00:26:25] Japan for instance. Can you comment on [00:26:28] any of this? [00:26:29] >> Well, I think it's worth pointing out [00:26:31] that [00:26:33] every conversation I've had that's not [00:26:34] covered by NDAs, [00:26:37] they don't talk about defense. They talk [00:26:39] about national security. [00:26:42] Because I think we we we're we very [00:26:44] quick to say, well, you of course with [00:26:46] munitions, you need tungsten. But there [00:26:48] are so many other uses for tungsten that [00:26:50] cover international security that when [00:26:52] when governments talk to you, they talk [00:26:54] about an umbrella of sectors that are [00:26:56] essential to the functioning of that [00:26:59] country because munitions is part of it, [00:27:03] armor is part of it. Uh then of course [00:27:06] you've got the actual vehicles, you've [00:27:07] got so many different components, the [00:27:10] semiconductors. So they they always talk [00:27:12] about an umbrella [00:27:15] of national security and it depends [00:27:17] which country you speak to whether they [00:27:20] pivot more towards defense items or more [00:27:23] towards technology items depending on [00:27:26] who who they don't want to upset. So for [00:27:29] instance in South Korea they're much [00:27:30] more focused on national security around [00:27:32] semiconductors. this is a a key part of [00:27:37] their their thinking. Whereas in the US, [00:27:39] of course, they they're pivoting much [00:27:41] more around defense items. So there's [00:27:44] not one sizefits-all. [00:27:46] The the unfortunate thing, as Chris [00:27:49] said, is that brownfields obviously have [00:27:52] become front and center, [00:27:54] but we have to remember that back in the [00:27:57] 50s, tungsten was more valuable than [00:27:58] gold. And every man and his dog was [00:28:01] mining it. and mining it in a way that [00:28:03] was not looking to the future, but just [00:28:05] to get out as much of the out of the [00:28:07] ground as quickly as possible to make as [00:28:08] much money as possible. And tungsten [00:28:11] projects traditionally were never very [00:28:13] large. We we know the mine we just [00:28:16] bought in Montana. [00:28:18] And it's actually in in US terms a big [00:28:22] mine, but it was never even when it was [00:28:24] open, it was almost it was just [00:28:26] bordering slightly above artisal. And it [00:28:29] was considered back then it was [00:28:30] supplying into the DLA. It was working [00:28:32] with with uh General Electric. It was [00:28:36] the you know because you need so little [00:28:39] tungsten. The world's production is [00:28:42] somewhere between 84 and 98,000 tons a [00:28:44] year globally of which 50% is is [00:28:48] consumed in China. The US consumes [00:28:51] somewhere in the region of 10,000 11,000 [00:28:53] tons a year of of tung of tungsten [00:28:55] oxide. That's it. So these mines were [00:28:58] always small. So these brownfields, many [00:29:01] of them, unfortunately, [00:29:04] I think there's one other thing you have [00:29:06] to consider with these mines. [00:29:09] There are two sides in mining. There's [00:29:11] the big mining companies that have [00:29:13] become bookkeeping exercises. They're [00:29:15] not creative. They're not nimble. [00:29:17] They're just essentially a bookkeeping [00:29:20] machine. They extract their copper. They [00:29:22] extract their iron ore. They they look [00:29:24] for to to inflate their margins and [00:29:26] compress their costs. That's it. And [00:29:28] then you have the niche metals. Now, [00:29:31] nobody knows anything about niche metals [00:29:32] because no one's been in it for 30 [00:29:34] years. So, junior miners come into the [00:29:36] fray. And junior miners aren't with the [00:29:38] greatest respect perhaps the greatest [00:29:42] sort of uh guardians of these assets. [00:29:46] They raise money, they spend it, they do [00:29:50] conferences, they get drunk, and [00:29:53] shareholders get burned out. That's [00:29:54] pretty much the cycle. So, we're trying [00:29:57] to base our strategy of diversification [00:30:00] from China with these niche small minds [00:30:03] in the hands of players who perhaps have [00:30:05] very limited experience and knowledge of [00:30:07] how to even design them, open them, and [00:30:10] operate them. And that's coming back to [00:30:13] the human capital. So that's another [00:30:15] thing to consider until the industrial [00:30:18] base and I'm not talking government [00:30:19] government money. I saw chi I saw Japan [00:30:23] and South Korea in 2008 to the financial [00:30:25] crisis deploy billions of dollars trying [00:30:27] to build a supply chain. They lost all [00:30:28] their money. A lot of Canadians and [00:30:29] Australians got rich but they didn't [00:30:32] were not successful until the industrial [00:30:34] base and the free market money comes [00:30:37] into this. Building a supply chain big [00:30:40] or small is going to be very difficult. [00:30:42] And I think the only way we get that is [00:30:45] through some level of price transparency [00:30:48] or at least some levels of price floor [00:30:52] pricing that's universally applied [00:30:54] across say the G7. Until you get that, [00:30:57] it's going to be very difficult to to [00:30:59] see these minds come to real fruition [00:31:01] because once they're being assessed by [00:31:03] the free market by free market capital, [00:31:06] the free market capital is much better [00:31:07] at deciding whether a project is worthy [00:31:09] or not irrespective of who owns it. [00:31:13] Christopher comments on uh free market [00:31:16] transparency on prices [00:31:19] and then why don't you step right into [00:31:21] the human capital. I'm interested for [00:31:23] instance Lewis on where you are finding [00:31:26] these experts to produce these past [00:31:30] producing minds. [00:31:32] >> Yeah. Um the the capital markets you [00:31:36] know failed the tungsten space [00:31:37] massively. But you know what could the [00:31:39] capital markets do when the prices were [00:31:42] so um so poulry? Uh there was a a [00:31:47] tungsten boomlet between like 2010 maybe [00:31:51] 2014. Uh but then and in that time there [00:31:55] were actually then more explorers than [00:31:58] producers. Uh because producing didn't [00:32:00] make you any money back then. Um and [00:32:02] exploring did um well at least it it [00:32:05] paid for the type of junkets and um [00:32:08] boozeups that uh Lewis was referring to. [00:32:11] Lewis was a producer then but he was [00:32:12] almost you know the last of the [00:32:14] Moheakans. Um whereas um uh these [00:32:18] explorers they all wilted and they [00:32:21] evaporated [00:32:22] um in 2014 when the price uh took a [00:32:26] dive. The price was never like it is [00:32:28] now. The price now is a good price. Um, [00:32:32] but [00:32:33] >> what about pricing transparency systems? [00:32:35] I know in Africa, for instance, they [00:32:37] developed a huge association to come [00:32:40] together to help create that standard. [00:32:43] Is there something that you're aware of, [00:32:45] Christopher, that we may or may not be [00:32:46] aware of at this time? [00:32:48] >> Well, you know, then you have to go to [00:32:50] really the LM and get the LM to do [00:32:52] something. Alam has had a bad experience [00:32:54] and they've been poor operators frankly [00:32:57] when they dived into the cobalt market [00:33:00] and the molly market at the end of the [00:33:02] you like 2009 they went in there they [00:33:04] they almost ruined the markets by [00:33:06] actually um applying transparency. Um we [00:33:10] do need transparency. um you know at the [00:33:13] moment uh some of these uh thinly traded [00:33:16] uh critical minerals um uh lots of nod [00:33:20] nod wink wink in the pricing mechanisms [00:33:23] and the ch and then behind all this and [00:33:25] for a long time you've had Chinese [00:33:28] disinformation or we're selling we're [00:33:30] selling a lot of material into the [00:33:32] market no be they'd sell a little bit [00:33:35] into the market but they would sink [00:33:37] prices dramatically on small volumes and [00:33:40] you had gross price manipulation across [00:33:42] a whole bunch of um these ill liquid [00:33:45] metals. You had the FA exchange scandal [00:33:47] and all that type of stuff. Um [00:33:50] uh there's been a lot of manipulation of [00:33:52] the tungsten price and there was really [00:33:53] only one party that was man manipulating [00:33:56] it. Uh now really, you know, as the [00:33:59] growth of production outside China is [00:34:01] rising, you've got more players that are [00:34:04] that can uh influence the price in a [00:34:06] different way. Uh, and um, that's what I [00:34:10] think we're seeing now. Um, the Chinese [00:34:13] are losing control of the prices of [00:34:15] antimony, of tungsten, and rare earth is [00:34:19] the big one. Um, you know, and they [00:34:22] they're losing control of them. They may [00:34:24] sort of look and people may, you know, [00:34:26] people still think, but they have to [00:34:29] deal with other parties now, which they [00:34:31] >> I think that's that's a good point. And [00:34:32] I mean I think what what we had was and [00:34:34] this was in fact enabled by the by the [00:34:36] western industrial base in China. If you [00:34:38] wanted to build a tungsten mine you had [00:34:40] to also apply for an AP a downstream [00:34:42] plant. That was a condition. You could [00:34:44] not just build a mine on its own. And so [00:34:46] what happened in China was that you had [00:34:47] on paper this huge capacity of AP but [00:34:51] there was no way to feed it. But the [00:34:53] industrial base were always pointing to [00:34:54] it look you know we prices are low [00:34:56] because they can flood the market [00:34:58] anytime they felt like. What we've seen [00:35:00] in the last 3 years as they've moved [00:35:02] away from the subsidies to try and bring [00:35:04] free market approaches to these mines [00:35:06] that they have left to bring those [00:35:08] efficiencies of management of resource [00:35:10] is they never had the material to feed [00:35:12] all of this capacity anyway. It was all [00:35:14] a big well smoke and mirrors campaign to [00:35:17] part of the price control mechanism. But [00:35:21] I think when you ask me about human [00:35:23] capital [00:35:24] um where do we find them? Well, we don't [00:35:28] we we have I mean, you know, the only [00:35:31] two mines survived the the culling in [00:35:34] the '9s. One was a Portuguese mine and [00:35:36] one belongs to Sanvic in Austria. It was [00:35:39] part of a supply chain. So, it was more [00:35:41] of a cost center than a standalone mine. [00:35:43] They were the only two that survived [00:35:45] this this bloodbath. [00:35:47] And and so we have five generations of [00:35:49] knowledge, but we have our tungsten [00:35:51] technology center and we have our [00:35:52] apprenticeships. We we try and you know [00:35:56] maintain that knowledge and it's not [00:35:58] easy because well people don't really [00:36:00] want to work in mind per se anyway and [00:36:03] now we have to find them in Portugal and [00:36:04] bring them in and then train them. we [00:36:06] have a very low turnover. You know, [00:36:08] they're obviously solicited by many of [00:36:10] the um the new players and with the huge [00:36:13] offers, but they they choose to stay [00:36:16] with us. But what we've done in in Korea [00:36:19] is that we have a high level of [00:36:21] automation in the plant because we're [00:36:22] using flotation. We're trying to embrace [00:36:26] a more AI approach to minimize the or or [00:36:31] at least try and mitigate the risk of [00:36:32] trying to find that human capital and [00:36:35] and that's you know we've Sanvic have [00:36:38] have done the same thing in in their [00:36:39] plant in their plant in in uh Austria [00:36:43] but finding that human capital there's [00:36:46] no consultant we can go to for tungsten [00:36:48] there's no book we can check we have one [00:36:50] guy within Armont who spent the last 20 [00:36:53] years doing nothing but researching [00:36:54] every project on the planet, every [00:36:56] process, every every you know data dump [00:36:59] he can find, every you know old Soviet [00:37:02] archives. I mean that that's you know we [00:37:05] we've always tried to keep learning [00:37:09] but the knowledge is is is gone. It's [00:37:13] it's really that it's really that poor. [00:37:16] I mean Chris said we open brownfields. [00:37:19] Well that's because that's our skill [00:37:21] set. our skill set is building something [00:37:24] where we have data that existed [00:37:25] beforehand and to see that we can [00:37:27] replicate it and do it and if we can do [00:37:28] it more efficiently, [00:37:30] you know, we've we that's how we [00:37:32] mitigate our risk. We we play to our [00:37:34] strengths. [00:37:35] >> Can you speak you were you were touching [00:37:37] on innovation earlier. Can you speak to [00:37:40] the technology for extraction for [00:37:42] instance because you know I know with [00:37:44] rare earth elements it's quite [00:37:46] sophisticated and it takes you know four [00:37:48] or five stages to get it from [00:37:50] exploration to an actual product. [00:37:54] >> Oh no tungsten. [00:37:56] >> What about tungsten? [00:37:57] >> No tungsten is is a question of [00:38:01] sensitivity. [00:38:03] It's the way that we we mine tungsten is [00:38:05] traditional. Uh the way that we process [00:38:08] is either gravity or flotation or a [00:38:10] combination of both. None of these are [00:38:12] used liberally through many different [00:38:13] metals. So that we don't do anything. We [00:38:15] can't say oh we're pioneers. What we are [00:38:18] very good at in our efficiencies and our [00:38:20] techn innovations is how to manage it s [00:38:23] the sensitivity of the management of [00:38:25] that of of that process. We understand [00:38:28] it's very brittle. We understand that [00:38:31] you know humidity changes, fluctuant [00:38:34] changes, uh, you know, water rate, you [00:38:38] know, hardness of water. We understand [00:38:40] the sensitivities of working with a with [00:38:42] a mineral that is extremely [00:38:44] uncooperative in being extracted from [00:38:46] the ground. We don't need heavy [00:38:48] chemicals. It's an inert process. It's [00:38:52] about experience and knowledge. You [00:38:55] can't learn as you well. And not true. [00:38:57] Portugal has the highest levels of [00:38:59] gravity recovery in the world for a [00:39:01] gravity plant. We average somewhere in [00:39:03] the region of 74 to 78% which is unheard [00:39:06] of. But we didn't do it overnight. It [00:39:08] took them 40 years to get that good. So [00:39:11] it gives you an idea that we're [00:39:13] constantly trying to do better. But it's [00:39:15] about the sensitivity. That's another [00:39:18] problem if you're an investor when you [00:39:21] look at a junior minor because on paper [00:39:23] I can make everything look good. Oh, you [00:39:25] know, I was doing this. I was doing [00:39:27] that. It's just a standard flowheet. [00:39:29] There's no problem. It's easy. You can [00:39:31] do it this time next week. But it's [00:39:33] about the sensitivity [00:39:35] of of of these things. And that's where [00:39:37] our efficiencies came in. We've [00:39:39] developed, you know, ideas. For [00:39:41] instance, we well, I can't tell you [00:39:42] everything because a lot of it's [00:39:43] proprietary, but we've combined some [00:39:45] processes together, which of course no [00:39:47] one else does on our gravity tables. We [00:39:50] work uh with our milling, how we crush [00:39:53] it through the three stages. you know, [00:39:55] some of the some of the adjustments that [00:39:57] some of the modules that we installed [00:39:58] ourselves on meta order equip autotech [00:40:01] equipment. So that that's what we we've [00:40:03] done. We've looked for areas to increase [00:40:06] our control of the management of the [00:40:09] throughput of that product. [00:40:12] >> Christopher, I know uh there are a lot [00:40:14] of companies that are writing on paper [00:40:18] as Lewis uh commented on about entering [00:40:21] the tungsten race. Can you tell us about [00:40:24] any other companies that may be, you [00:40:27] know, coming on board that we should all [00:40:28] be watching as well? [00:40:30] >> Well, I I wouldn't say that there are [00:40:32] many um because they're they're stymied. [00:40:36] Um you know, this is not like rare [00:40:38] earths where we suddenly went from from [00:40:40] one to or one or two uh to 200 in the [00:40:45] space of uh less than a year. [00:40:47] um this thing is is very resistant uh to [00:40:51] new entrance. There are a couple of [00:40:54] parties in the space who have very large [00:40:57] projects on the drawing board, but those [00:40:59] projects have been on the drawing board [00:41:01] for over a decade now. And to get them [00:41:03] off the drawing board is going to [00:41:06] require um these prices to remain at [00:41:09] very high levels for a very long time [00:41:11] because the amounts of money that are [00:41:13] required are eye watering. Um and very [00:41:16] interesting aspect and I'm not um uh you [00:41:20] know talking up alonte here but there [00:41:22] you know there are a couple of the [00:41:23] parties at the moment that are advanced [00:41:26] in the the tungsten space and alante of [00:41:29] course being the most advanced who are [00:41:32] going to ultimately undermine [00:41:35] these uh two or three big wannabe [00:41:38] projects because uh they're going to be [00:41:41] supplying the market. the market is not [00:41:44] infinite. Um and uh to the uh victor [00:41:50] goes the spoils and um the companies [00:41:53] that are most advanced at the moment are [00:41:55] going to largely preclude the [00:41:58] development of the the mammoth projects [00:42:02] that are like all woolly mammoths should [00:42:05] be in the museum. um they're not going [00:42:08] to be advancing. And we're going to be [00:42:09] having a bunch of small brown fields out [00:42:13] there. Uh none of these small brown [00:42:15] fields are anything like Sandong. [00:42:17] they're much much smaller and as um as [00:42:19] Louis pointed out you know most of the [00:42:21] ones in the US are smallish [00:42:25] and um they're going to make a [00:42:27] contribution because definitely at um [00:42:29] 900 $800 $700 [00:42:32] um per uh MTU of AP um they will be um [00:42:37] they will be profitable and they'll be [00:42:40] contributing but they're not going to be [00:42:41] produ contributing uh [00:42:45] hundreds of thousands of tons. [00:42:47] um they're going to be producing uh you [00:42:49] know tons and if they're lucky um you [00:42:52] know 10,000 tons um it's not that easy [00:42:56] and so it's it's it's a difficult space [00:42:59] to enter and I think we're seeing that [00:43:02] um juniors entering the space finding [00:43:05] even before they've got going and [00:43:07] started their promote that they can't [00:43:08] find themselves a decent asset um [00:43:11] because one of the big things that has [00:43:13] not been mentioned so far is grade um [00:43:16] you know some of these projects have [00:43:18] grades that are infinitisimal [00:43:20] and um uh Lewis has spoken about the the [00:43:23] processing um you know issues. The lower [00:43:26] the grade goes, the more processing [00:43:28] you've got to do to find a teacup of uh [00:43:32] of tungsten out of some of these mines. [00:43:35] And you know that's been an ongoing [00:43:37] problem with the big mine in the UK. Um [00:43:40] you know problems problems problems [00:43:42] grade. [00:43:45] Lewis did touch on grade earlier. Um, so [00:43:49] Lewis, if you can just uh touch on grade [00:43:52] first, but then if you can follow up [00:43:54] with will you be interested in uh doing [00:43:56] any more M&A work or you're seeking [00:43:59] partners um here in 2026 [00:44:02] and also um I was personally interested [00:44:06] in uh uh whether or not you would be [00:44:09] moving downstream here in the future. [00:44:12] Well, well, firstly, as an investor, [00:44:15] remember, you know, also as a company, [00:44:17] we're quite unusual because I'm the CEO [00:44:20] and I'm also the second largest investor [00:44:21] in the company. So, I've invested [00:44:22] millions of dollars of my own money into [00:44:24] this. So, it's it's quite a rarity, if [00:44:27] not unique, in in the junior mining [00:44:30] space. And as an investor, I always say [00:44:32] you need three things in a tungsten [00:44:33] project. You need grade, you need [00:44:35] longevity, and you need human capital. [00:44:38] If you have those three things, you have [00:44:40] a fighting chance of of of being [00:44:42] successful. If you're missing any one of [00:44:44] those components, you're taking your [00:44:46] chances. Um, as for our Monty's view, [00:44:51] we've we've never stopped looking at [00:44:53] projects even when it was not [00:44:56] fashionable. The reason we were able to [00:44:58] pick up what we consider to be the best [00:44:59] projects in the States is because we [00:45:01] cultivated a relationship with the with [00:45:03] the owner in 2017. The reason we got [00:45:05] Sandong in 2015 was was again [00:45:08] cultivation of relationships. We never [00:45:10] stopped looking. We still look now and [00:45:13] and yes, we we will continue to see with [00:45:16] now government support [00:45:19] assisting this. We will look to where we [00:45:21] can bring our knowledge and technologies [00:45:23] to different jurisdictions in order to [00:45:25] to try and alleviate this supply [00:45:29] squeeze. And bearing in mind though, [00:45:31] it's going to take there's no project [00:45:34] out there that's going to open in less [00:45:36] than seven years. I know there's someone [00:45:38] saying next year or it's seven years. I [00:45:40] mean, but when you get through permits, [00:45:41] you get, you know, there's all kinds of [00:45:43] hurdles you have to get through. Even if [00:45:44] the government is supporting you, you [00:45:46] still need to get through. In the US, [00:45:48] states and state is different and [00:45:49] litigation and NOS's and and all of this [00:45:52] business. As for going downstream, [00:45:56] we are going downstream to tungsten [00:45:57] oxide because in in South Korea 97.4% of [00:46:01] their oxide comes from China. You've got [00:46:03] some of the biggest consumers of oxide [00:46:05] in the world there and SK and Tague [00:46:07] which is BKA Haway's company uh Iskar. [00:46:11] It makes sense to have I like being in a [00:46:14] jurisdiction where I have customers on [00:46:16] the surface. It it it just makes sense [00:46:18] as a supplier that we we try and be in [00:46:21] in jurisdictions where our customers are [00:46:23] local. The government is of course [00:46:25] helping us. Going further downstream [00:46:29] um is something where going to carbide [00:46:31] or to powders is really a conversation [00:46:34] for the South Korean government. We [00:46:36] would not be bringing that oxide plant [00:46:38] into the US nor the product because [00:46:40] there is plenty of capacity just like in [00:46:42] China. in the US to make and manufacture [00:46:44] tungsten oxide. What they miss is raw [00:46:46] materials. That's the missing component. [00:46:50] So there is no tungsten oxide plant [00:46:52] currently in South Korea and yet they [00:46:54] are a voracious consumer per capita of [00:46:57] that product. So it does make some [00:46:59] sense. But M&A we we will continue to [00:47:04] scout and see what makes sense and [00:47:07] that's viable. I have no interest [00:47:10] in jumping on the junior mining [00:47:12] bandwagon of making a story, pump it up, [00:47:15] and get out of dodge. I'm only [00:47:17] interested in things that are viable [00:47:20] that will s we we can sustain and and [00:47:23] succeed with over a long period of time. [00:47:26] We like to feel that we are a the last [00:47:29] credible man standing because we take [00:47:32] this very seriously. It means I have [00:47:34] very few friends amongst my competitors. [00:47:37] But what can I do? Um, we know projects [00:47:40] that we like. We are always working on [00:47:43] different uh opportunities. [00:47:47] Now is no different. Montana is our step [00:47:51] into the US. Let's see what we do next. [00:47:56] >> Okay, we're going to open the floor for [00:47:58] 10 minutes of questions. Peter, uh, [00:48:00] wherever you are, can you unmute and go [00:48:02] ahead and ask your question? Thank you. [00:48:04] and please address who you would like to [00:48:06] answer your question with. [00:48:08] >> Hi, I'm Peter. Honestly, both you guys [00:48:10] are more than welcome to answer this [00:48:11] question. Um, you were talking about the [00:48:14] prices of tungsten and how they [00:48:15] skyrocketed, but [snorts] however how [00:48:17] fast it goes up can come back down just [00:48:19] as fast, right? Um so my question is uh [00:48:22] tungsten prices have skyrocketed due to [00:48:24] the demand being greater than supply but [00:48:26] it seems like uh price will only [00:48:29] increase because of the military AI and [00:48:31] nuclear fusion reactors demand for it. [00:48:33] These are three massive industries that [00:48:35] are only at the beginning of their [00:48:36] development. How will the growth of [00:48:38] these industries impact the price of [00:48:40] tungsten? [00:48:41] >> Well, can I actually point out [00:48:42] something? There's another there's [00:48:43] another gorilla in the room you forgot [00:48:45] to mention which is automotive. As [00:48:47] interest rates come down, the car space [00:48:49] will will come definitely back into its [00:48:51] into its form. You know, EVs are kind of [00:48:53] getting a bit more sidelined and [00:48:54] traditionally 40% of tungsten in the [00:48:56] west is consumed in some way by [00:48:58] automotive. So, that's been very much in [00:49:01] the doldrums since co high interest [00:49:03] rates, people aren't buying as many cars [00:49:05] or changing their cars as often. As [00:49:07] rates continue to come down, that will [00:49:09] also have a you more of a factor. And I [00:49:12] know Chris said what goes up comes down. [00:49:14] It's it's great. But [00:49:17] you have to consider forget about [00:49:19] everyone else. Forget about me. Forget [00:49:20] about anything in the west. Just look to [00:49:22] China. If we assume that China will [00:49:25] continue to maintain price control [00:49:29] in the last 20 years, we had a price [00:49:30] band of 250 to 350 for A, which was [00:49:34] because that was the 12 to 18% margin [00:49:36] that the mines required when they got [00:49:37] their subsy from the Chinese government. [00:49:39] The subsidy is gone now, meaning that [00:49:42] you'll need a price band using the same [00:49:44] calculation of between 450 and 550. So I [00:49:48] expect my planning is is I'm working now [00:49:51] on I mean Sandong was built at 300, but [00:49:54] we were planning 450 to 550. the current [00:49:57] price at a th00and may or may not stay [00:50:00] but when it comes down it will never [00:50:01] return to the levels that we saw [00:50:03] previously if we work on the basis that [00:50:06] China's mind Chinese minds want to [00:50:08] maintain those same margins so it won't [00:50:10] be a collapse it will be an adjustment [00:50:13] but believe me at 450 to 550 you've now [00:50:17] made you know other mines more viable [00:50:20] but if you look historically at mines [00:50:23] that have opened in the west and gone [00:50:25] out of business that's still below their [00:50:28] unit cost that price of 450 to 550. [00:50:32] So, you know, this isn't the game isn't [00:50:35] over yet. Um, the price will only come [00:50:38] down if supply exceeds demand and we're [00:50:41] some way from that. And again, as I said [00:50:43] earlier, no one really cares what the [00:50:45] price of tungsten is. It doesn't move. [00:50:47] It doesn't affect the prices of tools, [00:50:49] the prices of of of what it's used for [00:50:51] have not gone up in the West, even [00:50:53] though the raw material has. The margin [00:50:55] has not been affected proportionally by [00:50:57] the increase of tungsten price. My [00:50:59] customers hate it because they hate [00:51:00] paying for anything anything more than [00:51:03] free is is a is a complete, you know, [00:51:06] they find disgraceful. But it's not [00:51:09] price driven. The consumption of it, [00:51:12] it's availability. Sorry, Chris. Do you [00:51:14] want to add? [00:51:15] >> No, I'd agree totally. I don't when I [00:51:18] talk about correction I talk about a [00:51:20] correction you know pulling back$100 [00:51:22] $200 and you know temporarily uh the [00:51:26] effect that that always has is it cleans [00:51:28] out the fakers um and um it it will [00:51:33] permanently thwart um the financing [00:51:35] ambitions of these um these two big [00:51:38] Canadian projects which I I just see as [00:51:41] woolly mammoths out there in the [00:51:42] wilderness wandering towards the uh [00:51:46] towards Whatever fate befalls woolly [00:51:48] mammoths, we don't have any anymore. [00:51:51] >> I've seen uh interest for a question [00:51:53] from Peter Cashion and James Turnbull. [00:51:55] You took your unmute off. Would you like [00:51:56] to ask the next question, James? [00:51:59] >> Oh, thank you. Um yeah, yeah, I may have [00:52:02] missed the answer to this question. Um [00:52:05] when we talk about grade, what what sort [00:52:07] of ballpark um uh are you really looking [00:52:10] at? And I asked that from the [00:52:11] perspective of we're fun primarily a [00:52:14] copper miner in Utah. Um but we used to [00:52:16] be a tungsten mine in the 40s. Um so [00:52:19] we've been doing a little bit of work [00:52:20] and some you know assays etc which we're [00:52:23] sort of get getting back now. Um could [00:52:26] you give me a steer on that? [00:52:27] >> Well well not all all not all projects [00:52:30] are equal. So you're going to have a [00:52:31] high grade but an unusable deposit [00:52:33] because it has contaminants like uranium [00:52:35] and thorium [00:52:37] >> or high levels of of arsenic or or the [00:52:39] dreaded phosphorus like none of the [00:52:42] customers can can deal with that. The [00:52:44] average grade of a tungsten mine is [00:52:45] somewhere in the region of 0.2.22% [00:52:49] W3. [00:52:50] >> Okay. [00:52:50] >> Um, now that's at face. Then you have to [00:52:56] factor in dilution. If your open pit [00:52:58] obviously is greater than than [00:52:59] underground, but not all things are are [00:53:02] made equal. For instance, there was a [00:53:04] mine in in Canada in the old Canton was [00:53:06] 1% couldn't make money for love of money [00:53:09] because the the unit cost of extraction [00:53:11] was too great. So, you know, it's not [00:53:14] one sizefits-all because of course [00:53:16] mining cost in Europe is half of what it [00:53:17] is in the US for instance. So, we can [00:53:20] work in Europe with a grade of Portugal [00:53:22] has a low grade because it's a very old [00:53:24] mine. It runs at about 0.14, but we can [00:53:26] still make money even in a low price [00:53:27] environment. We can make money. Whereas [00:53:29] in the US, you really need a grade in [00:53:31] excess of.35 [00:53:33] to even stand a chance. So, it's it's [00:53:36] again, it's not one sizefits-all. Every [00:53:38] project is unique. [00:53:40] >> Peter Cash. I go back to the point that [00:53:42] you've got a copper mine with with the [00:53:45] tungsten. So, it's a byproduct credit [00:53:48] there. Um, so the economics are then [00:53:52] even more um maybe positive. Um, but [00:53:57] most most of these mines do not have [00:53:59] byproduct credit unless it's a Molly [00:54:01] credit. We haven't mentioned Molly here, [00:54:03] but Molly appears a lot with tungsten. [00:54:05] They're sort of like sisters. Um, [00:54:08] >> yeah, but it gets destroyed. It gets [00:54:10] destroyed as you through the process. [00:54:11] You can't you can't have molly as a [00:54:13] byproduct with tungsten. It doesn't [00:54:15] extract correctly. You end up destroying [00:54:17] the molly. [00:54:18] >> Yeah. But then if you got zonation in [00:54:20] the mine, you can [00:54:22] >> Yeah. [00:54:22] >> One or the other. [00:54:23] >> Yep. [00:54:24] >> And um so so tungsten mines may have [00:54:28] Molly as a follow on or they may be [00:54:31] Molly mines that have tungsten on a [00:54:33] follow on as a follow on. So it's [00:54:34] >> well the biggest the biggest isol in [00:54:36] China. They're a Molly mine with [00:54:38] tungsten as a byproduct. So that's and [00:54:40] they're the biggest producers of both [00:54:42] those metals in the world. It's a CCP [00:54:44] mine and they produce roughly what [00:54:46] 10,000 tons or 15,000 tons of molly and [00:54:48] 10,000 tons of tungsten a year. [00:54:52] >> Yeah. [00:54:53] >> Peter Cashion, I think you have a [00:54:54] question. [00:54:55] >> I do. Yeah. Thanks. Uh Tracy, gentlemen, [00:54:58] I mean um Lewis, you were talking that [00:55:01] about the fact that Sangong can [00:55:04] potentially supply 40% of the world [00:55:06] supply world of tungsten [00:55:08] >> non-Chinese non-Chinese supply [00:55:10] >> non-Chinese itself, but it's still uh an [00:55:14] important deposit given the grade. Um, [00:55:19] do you have or have you considered [00:55:21] assuming greater price control of Molly [00:55:25] given the importance of the deposit [00:55:26] number one [00:55:28] uh from the Chinese? And how do you how [00:55:30] would you do this? [00:55:32] >> Well, you know, for my sins, I'm a free [00:55:35] market. I'm a slave to the free market. [00:55:37] I survived that long because I I [00:55:39] embraced the free market. I never looked [00:55:41] for any help because I knew it wasn't [00:55:43] really going to be there and it always [00:55:44] ends badly. subsidies, support, it never [00:55:48] ends well. You have to learn and stand [00:55:50] on your own two feet. I I want the price [00:55:53] to be transparent because I want a [00:55:55] vibrant and healthy sector because my [00:55:59] customers I can't produce enough [00:56:00] material to keep all my customers in [00:56:02] business. And if my customers die, I [00:56:05] die. So, I'm I'm actually vested in the [00:56:07] success of my sector because my [00:56:10] customers, God bless them, are complete [00:56:12] morons when it comes to the supply chain [00:56:14] because they never had to deal with it. [00:56:15] They're like headless, you know, [00:56:17] chickens. So we have to find some level [00:56:22] of whether it be the G7 putting in you [00:56:25] know a floor price uh and anyone who [00:56:28] brings it in outside of that floor price [00:56:30] into country has to pay a tariff or [00:56:32] whatever it is there has to be some [00:56:33] visibility of assessment rather than [00:56:37] just you know coming up with a me being [00:56:40] a p me just supplementing what China was [00:56:42] doing. If you want my tungsten you got [00:56:44] to pay this. This to me will never end [00:56:47] well in in my opinion. The free market [00:56:52] bullies you into being better. That's [00:56:55] how you survive as long as we've done [00:56:59] cheaper [00:57:01] >> just efficiently. I mean it's it's you [00:57:03] know it's a cold and lonely place. No [00:57:05] one's going to help you. You sink or you [00:57:06] swim and and so and it's made us [00:57:10] extraordinarily resilient now. We can [00:57:12] take knocks from anyone and we can get [00:57:14] we can stand up and and dust it off. So [00:57:18] it made us very efficient. It made us [00:57:21] lean. It made us approach things [00:57:24] without you know uh without any [00:57:27] entitlement that we were owed anything. [00:57:29] It it it made us very good and and and [00:57:31] it's not for everyone the free market. [00:57:33] But I I'm a big believer it's the only [00:57:36] way we can build a supply chain. You [00:57:38] have to make more armonies in in these [00:57:41] critical metals if you want a reliable [00:57:43] dependable source of any critical metal. [00:57:47] >> No, I agree totally. Um, you know, we've [00:57:50] we've seen this we've seen this problem [00:57:53] over and over again. You know, a lot of [00:57:54] these um mid tier and lower [00:57:57] species in the tungsten space are [00:58:00] looking to Washington to bail them out [00:58:03] to make their projects work. um you [00:58:05] know, they have 100 million, $200 [00:58:07] million uh market caps. They should be [00:58:10] raising $30 million, $40 million. [00:58:13] Instead, they're hanging out hoping to [00:58:15] get 10 million from Washington. Um they [00:58:19] should be doing rights issues and [00:58:20] financings now even though it's going to [00:58:23] knock their stock price because they're [00:58:24] obsessed because of course they got [00:58:26] executive options, etc. They don't want [00:58:28] to see their stock price damaged by [00:58:30] financing. When you've you've had a [00:58:32] market cap of $20 million for years, [00:58:35] decades, and suddenly you see 200 [00:58:37] million, that's the time you strike like [00:58:39] a cobra on the market. Get yourself 50 [00:58:42] million so that you can actually make [00:58:44] your project advance. Um, you know, just [00:58:46] waiting for, you know, hoping that that [00:58:49] Washington's going to give you some [00:58:50] scrapings off the table. Um, could mean [00:58:53] that they're destined for the the [00:58:55] garbage heap as well. [00:58:58] >> Well, although Tungsten is a fairly [00:59:00] Peter. Um, we're we're officially at the [00:59:03] end of our master class. [00:59:05] >> Okay. [00:59:05] >> So, I just want to give Christopher and [00:59:07] Lewis uh a minute to have closing words. [00:59:11] Who would like to go first? [00:59:14] >> Oh, I'll follow you, Chris. [00:59:16] >> Oh, okay. No, it's exciting time. You [00:59:18] know, we've waited. We've we've trudged [00:59:21] across the great Gobi Desert of Tungsten [00:59:23] over 15 or more years. Um, and now we [00:59:27] see the oasis. Um, and it may not maybe [00:59:30] be hopefully more than oasis, but a [00:59:32] sunny upland of, you know, the land of [00:59:34] milk and honey for for tungsten. Um, and [00:59:37] the good thing is I've said that there [00:59:39] are not many juniors in the space is [00:59:41] that there are not many juniors in the [00:59:43] space. Um, and that uh some of the [00:59:45] survivors uh here, you know, it's bit [00:59:48] like a disaster movie. a few survivors [00:59:51] sort of crawl out of the the ruins and [00:59:54] um you know they're enjoying the the [00:59:57] prospect of uh a reward for their [01:00:00] long-term sufferings. [01:00:02] >> Well, I like to add you know in 2011 we [01:00:04] saw the price of tungsten at 475 and [01:00:06] everyone was in the tungsten business [01:00:07] and nothing from that time exists today. [01:00:10] I very much hope that this time around [01:00:13] we've learned some lessons. I I doubt [01:00:14] whether we have but you know from our [01:00:17] point of view is we have a as a company [01:00:19] we have a responsibility we have a lot [01:00:21] of you know knowledge and technology [01:00:24] within the company we intend to keep [01:00:26] broadening our wings we are being widely [01:00:28] supported by multiple governments we're [01:00:30] going to act responsibly [01:00:32] and I'm going to play nice with everyone [01:00:34] for the next two years while we build [01:00:36] the supply chain and then I'm pulling [01:00:37] the knives back out uh to to continue to [01:00:40] maintain my my position at the top of [01:00:41] the pile. But I think we have to work [01:00:44] together uh over the next 24 months to [01:00:46] find really practical, real solutions [01:00:49] that doesn't involve just taking other [01:00:51] people's money and flushing it like last [01:00:53] time. [01:00:55] >> I'd like to thank everybody for joining [01:00:56] us with for today's CMI tungsten master [01:01:00] class. If you'd like more information, [01:01:02] send me a note. Also, we will be cutting [01:01:05] video extracts from this and everybody [01:01:07] who's here today will receive a copy [01:01:10] once Lewis and Christopher have approved [01:01:12] the content. Thank you so much for [01:01:14] joining us. [01:01:15] >> Thank you, Chasey. Thank you. [01:01:16] >> Thank you.

Assistant: Vielen Dank für das ausführliche Transkript. edit

Vielen Dank für das ausführliche Transkript. Bevor ich mit der strukturierten Zusammenfassung beginne: Möchtest du, dass ich alle im Transkript erwähnten Zeitstempel in der Zusammenfassung vollständig beibehalte, nur für besonders wichtige Aussagen verwende, oder komplett weglasse?

User: Verwende es für besonders wichtige Aussagen edit

Verwende es für besonders wichtige Aussagen

Assistant: Verstanden – ich fasse die Inhalte der Tungsten Masterclass des Critical Minerals Institute strukturiert und präzise au… edit

Verstanden – ich fasse die Inhalte der Tungsten Masterclass des Critical Minerals Institute strukturiert und präzise auf Deutsch zusammen und verwende Zeitstempel nur bei besonders wichtigen Aussagen. Ich beginne jetzt mit der Analyse und melde mich in Kürze mit der fertigen Zusammenfassung.

gpt-? edit

Assistant: 1. edit