Editing Help talk:Citation Style 1 (section)

== What's the point of "Script title" parameter? ==

And while it might have been answered here before - pretty please, add that explanation to the documentation of templates that use this paramter (like [[:Template:Cite web]]). It should be obvious from readng the doc (and it very much isn't now; as in - why use this field if the Chinese etc. scripts display perfectly fine in regular title field?). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:40, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

:Ctrl + F finds the following (eventually) in the cited template documentation:
:<blockquote>script-title: Original title for languages that do not use a Latin-based script (Arabic, Chinese, Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Japanese, Korean, etc); follows Romanization defined in title (if present). Must be prefixed with one of the [[Help:Citation_Style_1#script-param>= language codes|supported language codes]] to help browsers properly display the script:<br/>... |title=Tōkyō tawā |script-title=ja:東京タワー |trans-title=Tokyo Tower ...</blockquote>
:I suppose we might adjust this to say that script-title is only needed when italics would otherwise be output (which may be a general adjustment), as CS1 might for the name of a book or website. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 03:05, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::One thing I hate about the |script parameters is that they strip things like quotation marks from article titles. [[User:Snowman304|'''Snowman304''']]'''&#124;'''[[User talk:Snowman304|'''talk''']] 00:32, 4 October 2025 (UTC)
:::I've noticed that and I'm pretty sure I'd come to the conclusion it probably shouldn't do that. You should make a new section for it. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:40, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
:In addition to avoiding italics for Chinese characters etc in book titles, this allows one to also give the romanized title in {{para|title}}. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 07:30, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:[[Template:Cite web#csdoc_script-title]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:16, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Izno|Izno]] @[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] I did see that, but I did not realize italics would be a problem - this needs to be clearly explained in the text. Should title field be empty for Chinese and similar languages? This is very much still uncledar to me (and there is even an error prompt when saving the template about title field being empty). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:49, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
:::PS. I noticed this problem when c/e a ref [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Honkai:_Star_Rail_characters&diff=prev&oldid=1314170336 here]. In the past I've always seen and included Chinese / Korean titles in the title field, and I can't recall I've ever seen this parameter used until today. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:50, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
:A week later and I still don't know when to use this. A lot of my students are adding Chinese and Korean sources, and I am telling them to use the title, not script, field, and nothing in our rules tells me I am giving them bad advice (since the title field ''does not'' say not to use non-latin scripts in it). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 07:29, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::In order to be most helpful to readers not familiar with the script, I suggest that the documentation should recommend that titles in non-Latin scripts should be placed in {{para|script-title}}, with a romanization in {{para|title}}. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 08:18, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Indeed; but we also should have a way to dynamically fix it - a pop up or such when saving a template with non-Latin characters in the title parameter. Otherwise next to nobody will be doing this, as it is counter-intuitive not to have a title in the, well, title parameter. Plus we have the "trans-title" parameter, for translating the, well, title, not the "trans-script-title"... Frankly, I don't undestand the technical problem of not being able to handle non-Latin stuff in title field. I've never seen any problem with the non-Latin stuff in that field. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:02, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I'll second this; I've used plenty of Cyrillic in the title field w/o any issues. Or is the idea non-Latin script in the script field, transliterated title in the title field and translated title in trans-title? If so then that should be made much clearer.--[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] ([[User talk:Sturmvogel 66|talk]]) 11:29, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] "Bah, editors should figure that out by using wiki telepathy. The person who designed that field had a good idea how to use it - why can't everyone else?" :P <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:36, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::Something like
:::::<syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext> <ref>{{cite book
 | title        = Luach Ha-pe'alim Ha-shalem
 | script-title = he:לוח הפעלים השלם
 | trans-title  = The complete verb table
 | author       = Dr. Shaul Barkali 
 | publisher    = Levine/Millenniu
 }}
</ref>
</syntaxhighlight>
:::::Rendering as this<ref>{{cite book
 | title        = Luach Ha-pe'alim Ha-shalem
 | script-title = he:לוח הפעלים השלם
 | trans-title  = The complete verb table
 | author       = Dr. Shaul Barkali 
 | publisher    = Levine/Millenniu
 }}
</ref> and creating metadata for the Hebrew title. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 12:54, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::Do that ↑; don't do this:
:::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite book |title=he:לוח הפעלים השלם |author=Shaul Barkali |publisher=Levine/Millenniu}}</syntaxhighlight>
::::::::{{cite book |title=לוח הפעלים השלם |author=Shaul Barkali |publisher=Levine/Millenniu}}
::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:03, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Do you mean that title is for rendering the title in latin characters ([[romanization]]), and non-latin go in the script? That makes sense, but rendering titles in latin is often hard. It also requires extra steps. When pasting a random Korean ref into Citoid etc. I am pretty sure it ignores script-title, and uses Hangul for title. I see no problem with this (of course, best practice is to provide translation and romanization, but this is not what most editors do in 99% of cases...). Frankly, this is something we should have an AI tool run by a bot handle :P <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 14:55, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::{{para|script-title}} was created because non-latin text, especially cjk text, should not be italicized and because right-to-left text (Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, etc) must be isolated from left-to-right text.  {{para|script-title}} also marks-up the non-latin text so that browsers and screen readers can render and pronounce the text using appropriate fonts and pronunciation.
::::::::
::::::::If you have issues with citoid, this place is not the correct venue; a discussion at Help talk:Citation Style 1 has no power to change citoid.  Try [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ Phabricator].
::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] I don't have issues with citoid - much. I am trying to figure out when script-title should be used, and get some folks who know the answer to this to update the relevant documentation at [[:Template:Cite web]] and wherever else this paramater is used. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 15:36, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::{{tq|Indeed; but we also should have a way to dynamically fix it - a pop up or such when saving a template with non-Latin characters in the title parameter}} {{small|([[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#c-Piotrus-20251009100200-Kanguole-20251009081800|link]])}} and {{tq|When pasting a random Korean ref into Citoid etc. I am pretty sure it ignores script-title, and uses Hangul for title}} {{small|([[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#c-Piotrus-20251009145500-Trappist_the_monk-20251009140300|link]])}} read like complaints about citoid (and ve) to me.  We can't fix those things here.
::::::::::
::::::::::I am known to suck at writing documentation – my style is too technical.  If you (or anyone) knows how to make the documentation more complete and understandable, the template docs are not protected, so please do.  See:
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation_Style_documentation/title]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation_Style_documentation/web]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/chapter]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/journal]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/quote]]
::::::::::That abomination that is TemplateData must be edited at each of the 29 cs1|2 templates.
::::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:56, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:The discussions attendant on implementing {{para|script-title}}:
:*{{slink|Module_talk:Citation/CS1/Archive_11|non-italic_titles}}
:*{{slink|Module_talk:Citation/CS1/Archive_10|rtl_language_support_in_CS1_titles}}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:03, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
<!-- Keep after last sig -->
{{reflist-talk}}