Editing Help talk:Citation Style 1

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== Support for trans-series and trans-publisher ==

*<code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>cite book |last1=Hiriart-Urruty |first1=Jean-Baptiste |last2=Lemaréchal |first2=Claude |author-link2=Claude Lemaréchal |year=1993 |chapter=XII Abstract duality for practitioners |title=Convex analysis and minimization algorithms, Volume II: Advanced theory and bundle methods |series=Grundlehren der Mathematischen Wissenschaften '''|trans-series=Fundamental Principles of Mathematical Sciences''' |volume=306 |publisher=Springer-Verlag |location=Berlin |pages=136–193 (and bibliographical comments on pp. 334–335) |isbn=3-540-56852-2 |mr=1295240}}</code>
*<code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>cite journal | last1 = Hallgrímsson | first1 = Helgi | last2 = Eyjólfsdóttir | first2 = Guðríður Gyða | date = 2004 | language = Icelandic | title = Íslenskt sveppatal I - smásveppir | trans-title = Checklist of Icelandic Fungi I - Microfungi | journal = Fjölrit Náttúrufræðistofnunar |trans-journal=Polygraph of the Institute of Natural Sciences | publisher = Náttúrufræðistofnun Íslands '''|trans-publisher=Natural History Institute of Iceland''' | location = Reykjavík}}</code>
Gives
*{{cite book |last1=Hiriart-Urruty |first1=Jean-Baptiste |last2=Lemaréchal |first2=Claude |author-link2=Claude Lemaréchal |year=1993 |chapter=XII Abstract duality for practitioners |title=Convex analysis and minimization algorithms, Volume II: Advanced theory and bundle methods |series=Grundlehren der Mathematischen Wissenschaften |trans-series=Fundamental Principles of Mathematical Sciences |volume=306 |publisher=Springer-Verlag |location=Berlin |pages=136–193 (and bibliographical comments on pp. 334–335) |isbn=3-540-56852-2 |mr=1295240}}
*{{cite journal | last1 = Hallgrímsson | first1 = Helgi | last2 = Eyjólfsdóttir | first2 = Guðríður Gyða | date = 2004 | language = Icelandic | title = Íslenskt sveppatal I - smásveppir | trans-title = Checklist of Icelandic Fungi I - Microfungi | journal = Fjölrit Náttúrufræðistofnunar |trans-journal=Polygraph of the Institute of Natural Sciences | publisher = Náttúrufræðistofnun Íslands |trans-publisher=Natural History Institute of Iceland | location = Reykjavík}}
&#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 16:38, 14 September 2025 (UTC)

:A "trans-series" parameter would be helpful. I just came to this page for the same reason—it would be helpful for Rex Raab's 1993 biography cited in the article on [[Edith Maryon]], where "trans-title" works but "trans-series" does not. The former is obviously more important, but the latter would be a bonus. --[[User:Usernameunique|Usernameunique]] ([[User talk:Usernameunique|talk]]) 03:52, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

:What about {{para|script-publisher}} and {{para|script-series}}? -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 12:51, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

== i18n: Translatable texts from [[Module:Citation/CS1]] ==

* 'character' is translatable.
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
					err_msg = char_name .. ' ' .. 'character';
</syntaxhighlight>

* 'Wikidata', 'Wikisource' and 'Wikipedia' are translatable.
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
					local proj_name = ({['d'] = 'Wikidata', ['s'] = 'Wikisource', ['w'] = 'Wikipedia'})[proj];	-- :w (wikipedia) for linking from a non-wikipedia project
</syntaxhighlight>

* '-name-list parameters' is translatable.
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
			utilities.set_message ('err_redundant_parameters', err_name .. '-name-list parameters');	-- add error message
</syntaxhighlight>

* A single space between <code>Minutes</code> and <code>cfg.messages['minutes']</code> should be optional, since some languages do not require a space between them. For example, in [[Korean language|Korean]], "23 minutes in" is translated as "23분부터", not "23 분부터". (The same goes for [[Japanese language|Japanese]], where they created separate module for i18n. See [[:ja:Module:Citation/CS-ja]] and [[:ja:Module:Citation/CS-ja/Configuration]])

<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
			Position = " " .. Minutes .. " " .. cfg.messages['minutes'];
</syntaxhighlight>

* 'citation' (the second one) and 'cite ' are translatable. In addition, in Korean, the 'cite *' series is translated as '* 인용', such as [[:ko:Template:웹 인용|웹 인용]] or [[:ko:template:서적 인용|서적 인용]]. (Same for [[:tr:Şablon:Web kaynağı]], etc.) So there should be an option for swtiching the order of 'cite ' and <code>config.CitationClass</code>.
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
	local template_name = ('citation' == config.CitationClass) and 'citation' or 'cite ' .. (cfg.citation_class_map_t[config.CitationClass] or config.CitationClass);
</syntaxhighlight>

So, it would be much better if these literal strings were moved to the /configuration and given a slight adjustment to improve i18n. Thanks.--[[User:Namoroka|Namoroka]] ([[User talk:Namoroka|talk]]) 02:36, 20 September 2025 (UTC)
:Thanks for finding those.  Fixed in the sandbox, I think.  Examples in the same order:
::for invisible characters:
<div style="margin-left:4.8em">{{cite compare |template=book |title=Title with	horizontal tab}}
{{cite compare |template=book |title=Title with <ref>ref stripmarker</ref>}}</div>
::for interproject wikilink annotations:
<div style="margin-left:4.8em">{{cite compare |template=book |author=Abraham Lincoln |author-link=:s:Author:Abraham Lincoln |title=Abraham Lincoln's First Inaugural Address}}</div>
::For redundant author/editor parameters:
<div style="margin-left:4.8em">{{cite compare |template=book |author=EB Green |vauthors=Green EB |title=Title}}
{{cite compare |template=book |editor=EB Green |veditors=Green EB |title=Title}}</div>
::for 'minutes in' in-source location:
<div style="margin-left:4.8em">{{cite compare |template=AV media |title=Title |minutes=12:34}}</div>
::for error message, maint message, and preview message annotation ({{tld|cite &lt;{{var|whatever}}>}} same as {{tlx|cite book}} annotations above):
<div style="margin-left:4.8em">{{cite compare |template=citation |author=EB Green1 |title=}}</div>
<div style="margin-left:1.6em">{{reflist-talk}}</div>
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 19:12, 21 September 2025 (UTC)
::Please move also "(empty string)". And <code>cfg.messages['archived-unfit']</code> should have place-holder. [[User:FlatLanguage|FlatLanguage]] ([[User talk:FlatLanguage|talk]]) 05:10, 26 September 2025 (UTC)
:::And <code>cfg.messages['inactive']</code>. --[[User:FlatLanguage|FlatLanguage]] ([[User talk:FlatLanguage|talk]]) 06:19, 26 September 2025 (UTC)
:::
:::'empty string' done:
::::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite book/new |title=Title|=}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::::{{cite book/new |title=Title|=}}
:::I don't know what you mean by {{tq|place-holder}}.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 18:20, 4 October 2025 (UTC)

== What's the point of "Script title" parameter? ==

And while it might have been answered here before - pretty please, add that explanation to the documentation of templates that use this paramter (like [[:Template:Cite web]]). It should be obvious from readng the doc (and it very much isn't now; as in - why use this field if the Chinese etc. scripts display perfectly fine in regular title field?). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:40, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

:Ctrl + F finds the following (eventually) in the cited template documentation:
:<blockquote>script-title: Original title for languages that do not use a Latin-based script (Arabic, Chinese, Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Japanese, Korean, etc); follows Romanization defined in title (if present). Must be prefixed with one of the [[Help:Citation_Style_1#script-param>= language codes|supported language codes]] to help browsers properly display the script:<br/>... |title=Tōkyō tawā |script-title=ja:東京タワー |trans-title=Tokyo Tower ...</blockquote>
:I suppose we might adjust this to say that script-title is only needed when italics would otherwise be output (which may be a general adjustment), as CS1 might for the name of a book or website. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 03:05, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::One thing I hate about the |script parameters is that they strip things like quotation marks from article titles. [[User:Snowman304|'''Snowman304''']]'''&#124;'''[[User talk:Snowman304|'''talk''']] 00:32, 4 October 2025 (UTC)
:::I've noticed that and I'm pretty sure I'd come to the conclusion it probably shouldn't do that. You should make a new section for it. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:40, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
:In addition to avoiding italics for Chinese characters etc in book titles, this allows one to also give the romanized title in {{para|title}}. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 07:30, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:[[Template:Cite web#csdoc_script-title]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:16, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Izno|Izno]] @[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] I did see that, but I did not realize italics would be a problem - this needs to be clearly explained in the text. Should title field be empty for Chinese and similar languages? This is very much still uncledar to me (and there is even an error prompt when saving the template about title field being empty). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:49, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
:::PS. I noticed this problem when c/e a ref [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Honkai:_Star_Rail_characters&diff=prev&oldid=1314170336 here]. In the past I've always seen and included Chinese / Korean titles in the title field, and I can't recall I've ever seen this parameter used until today. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 02:50, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
:A week later and I still don't know when to use this. A lot of my students are adding Chinese and Korean sources, and I am telling them to use the title, not script, field, and nothing in our rules tells me I am giving them bad advice (since the title field ''does not'' say not to use non-latin scripts in it). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 07:29, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::In order to be most helpful to readers not familiar with the script, I suggest that the documentation should recommend that titles in non-Latin scripts should be placed in {{para|script-title}}, with a romanization in {{para|title}}. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 08:18, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Indeed; but we also should have a way to dynamically fix it - a pop up or such when saving a template with non-Latin characters in the title parameter. Otherwise next to nobody will be doing this, as it is counter-intuitive not to have a title in the, well, title parameter. Plus we have the "trans-title" parameter, for translating the, well, title, not the "trans-script-title"... Frankly, I don't undestand the technical problem of not being able to handle non-Latin stuff in title field. I've never seen any problem with the non-Latin stuff in that field. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:02, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I'll second this; I've used plenty of Cyrillic in the title field w/o any issues. Or is the idea non-Latin script in the script field, transliterated title in the title field and translated title in trans-title? If so then that should be made much clearer.--[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] ([[User talk:Sturmvogel 66|talk]]) 11:29, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] "Bah, editors should figure that out by using wiki telepathy. The person who designed that field had a good idea how to use it - why can't everyone else?" :P <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:36, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::Something like
:::::<syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext> <ref>{{cite book
 | title        = Luach Ha-pe'alim Ha-shalem
 | script-title = he:לוח הפעלים השלם
 | trans-title  = The complete verb table
 | author       = Dr. Shaul Barkali 
 | publisher    = Levine/Millenniu
 }}
</ref>
</syntaxhighlight>
:::::Rendering as this<ref>{{cite book
 | title        = Luach Ha-pe'alim Ha-shalem
 | script-title = he:לוח הפעלים השלם
 | trans-title  = The complete verb table
 | author       = Dr. Shaul Barkali 
 | publisher    = Levine/Millenniu
 }}
</ref> and creating metadata for the Hebrew title. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 12:54, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::Do that ↑; don't do this:
:::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite book |title=he:לוח הפעלים השלם |author=Shaul Barkali |publisher=Levine/Millenniu}}</syntaxhighlight>
::::::::{{cite book |title=לוח הפעלים השלם |author=Shaul Barkali |publisher=Levine/Millenniu}}
::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:03, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Do you mean that title is for rendering the title in latin characters ([[romanization]]), and non-latin go in the script? That makes sense, but rendering titles in latin is often hard. It also requires extra steps. When pasting a random Korean ref into Citoid etc. I am pretty sure it ignores script-title, and uses Hangul for title. I see no problem with this (of course, best practice is to provide translation and romanization, but this is not what most editors do in 99% of cases...). Frankly, this is something we should have an AI tool run by a bot handle :P <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 14:55, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::{{para|script-title}} was created because non-latin text, especially cjk text, should not be italicized and because right-to-left text (Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, etc) must be isolated from left-to-right text.  {{para|script-title}} also marks-up the non-latin text so that browsers and screen readers can render and pronounce the text using appropriate fonts and pronunciation.
::::::::
::::::::If you have issues with citoid, this place is not the correct venue; a discussion at Help talk:Citation Style 1 has no power to change citoid.  Try [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ Phabricator].
::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] I don't have issues with citoid - much. I am trying to figure out when script-title should be used, and get some folks who know the answer to this to update the relevant documentation at [[:Template:Cite web]] and wherever else this paramater is used. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 15:36, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::{{tq|Indeed; but we also should have a way to dynamically fix it - a pop up or such when saving a template with non-Latin characters in the title parameter}} {{small|([[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#c-Piotrus-20251009100200-Kanguole-20251009081800|link]])}} and {{tq|When pasting a random Korean ref into Citoid etc. I am pretty sure it ignores script-title, and uses Hangul for title}} {{small|([[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#c-Piotrus-20251009145500-Trappist_the_monk-20251009140300|link]])}} read like complaints about citoid (and ve) to me.  We can't fix those things here.
::::::::::
::::::::::I am known to suck at writing documentation – my style is too technical.  If you (or anyone) knows how to make the documentation more complete and understandable, the template docs are not protected, so please do.  See:
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation_Style_documentation/title]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation_Style_documentation/web]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/chapter]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/journal]]
::::::::::*[[Template:Citation Style documentation/quote]]
::::::::::That abomination that is TemplateData must be edited at each of the 29 cs1|2 templates.
::::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:56, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:The discussions attendant on implementing {{para|script-title}}:
:*{{slink|Module_talk:Citation/CS1/Archive_11|non-italic_titles}}
:*{{slink|Module_talk:Citation/CS1/Archive_10|rtl_language_support_in_CS1_titles}}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:03, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
<!-- Keep after last sig -->
{{reflist-talk}}

==Discussion at [[:Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Is Monkbot 21 removing url-status=dead desirable?|Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard §&nbsp;Is Monkbot 21 removing url-status=dead desirable?]]==
[[File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg|25px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at [[:Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Is Monkbot 21 removing url-status=dead desirable?|Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard §&nbsp;Is Monkbot 21 removing url-status=dead desirable?]].  <span title="Signature of Dan Leonard">[[User:Dan Leonard|Dan Leonard]] ([[User talk:Dan Leonard|talk]]&nbsp;• [[Special:Contributions/Dan Leonard|contribs]])</span> 19:46, 8 October 2025 (UTC)<!-- [[Template:Please see]] -->

== PMC limit too low ==

[[Trace Gas Orbiter]] has {{PMC|12506970}}, which is correct. It looks like there's currently an unreleased article with {{PMC|12513599}}, if that helps determine the upper limit of this increment. [[User:Snowman304|'''Snowman304''']]'''&#124;'''[[User talk:Snowman304|'''talk''']] 01:14, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

== SSRN value ==

Needs update per {{SSRN|5515282}}. [[User:DrKay|DrKay]] ([[User talk:DrKay|talk]]) 17:00, 14 October 2025 (UTC)

== Cite journal  ==

I don’t know if this applies to the other journals but you have to enter [month in words] [year] but in journals it is often written as [year] [month number] which messes up the automatic citation maker. [[User:Zhenghecaris|Houcaris]] ([[User talk:Zhenghecaris|talk]]) 20:44, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

:For example January 1988 and 1988-1. [[User:Zhenghecaris|Houcaris]] ([[User talk:Zhenghecaris|talk]]) 20:45, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
::Yes. "1988-1" or "1988-01" are not valid date formats on the English Wikipedia. See [[MOS:DATESNO]] for more information. You may need to edit the automatic output of citation tools. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
::We write dates according to the documentation for {{tl|Cite journal}}. How the publication being cited chooses to write dates doesn't matter. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 21:02, 20 October 2025 (UTC)